Comments on the legal threat to SKYRUNNER.COM
This whole episode is so ridiculous. What a waste of your valuable time.
Zehrer sounds like a twit. Keep up the good work, Matt!!
Hurray!!!!! It is over. Can we go back to running now?
The legal threat has been resolved!!! Sorry to hear this b@#@#@# is insecure enough to let himself fall prey to feelings of inferiority due to your command of the PPA/PPM particulars, as well as your obviously fortuitous dedication to the race, be it for amateurs or not. It’s a total shame to use proceeds from an amateur race to advance one man’s vengeful agenda against one of the races’ most visible and helpful proponents, and soils the face of the TCR/PPM. You do and have done more for the organization than probably anyone else (you’re the PR engine, for Pete’s sake!) and deserve better than to be treated this way. I don’t see that they have much of a case, since you are using your own photo in a non-profitable way, and claiming no official ties to TCR/PPM. Zehrer’s actions imply complicity with these uses. Good luck if it all goes to court, although I really don’t think you’ll need it.
If there’s anything I can do to help with this mess, just let me know.
It’s this sort of petty, internecine, political bickering that is ruining the Pikes Peak Race. This is the sort of thing that disillusioned our beloved Roger Allison, that probably tired out Nancy Hobbs, and that resulted in the embarrassing year of “two triple crowns” back in the early 90’s (talk about splintering!) Why can’t they just focus on organizing a great race, and give you the room to operate the finest damn race web-site ever made?
I’ve been “hitting” the site for over a year now and NEVER even once thought it was the official site. One very obvious reference “the TCR and I disagree on some records” clearly points out that it is not the official site. This is really crazy!!
WWW.SKYRUNNER.COM is THE VEHICLE that took me successfully through my first marathon; could be my last time to pay to run Pike’s Peak. Better watch out, Dave — you could end up with no entry fees money. Don’t you realize you’re messing with the lifeblood of your races?
I really appreciate the hard work you’ve done in creating a great web page for the Pike’s Peak Marathon. I’m thinking about running it and it’s given me good ideas about how to train and what to expect. I’m sorry PPM is bothering you about your web site. I think they owe you an apology, given how much you’ve promoted the Pikes Peak Marathon. It doesn’t help anyone for them to act like that. They can’t see that. So, I’m going to write them a nice letter asking them to apologize. Hopefully, they will be more positive, because that’s what running in some of the most beautiful scenery in the world is all about.
From the e-mail sent to us by Dave Zehrer —
“Matt Carpenter was requested, on November 25, 1998, to properly attribute ownership of the race name and “America’s Ultimate Challenge” and to prominently note that his web site was not an official site or extension of the PPM. Rather reasonable requests but ones which were ignored entirely (even though on the same day $150.00 was donated to support the site because it does provide excellent information on the trail.).” Now if we were doing business, we know we wouldn’t be giving out any money if we disapproved of something. Why in the world did Dave give you $150 even though he didn’t like what was posted on your website? Just doesn’t make sense, does it?
Do not disgorge! Perhaps they feel you are grazing in their not-so-green mountain pasture like some sort of ruminating mountain goat. But no disgorging about it, if that were true, it would be through anti-peristalsis that materials would be returned for cud-chewing. I think this is a very weak gesture on the part of someone trying to keep you on the outside of the fence looking in. They “got your goat” once by shooting down the elite competition ideas, but this time they are after it with intention. You have become such an important spokesperson for this race that it is scaring them silly (billy). You’ve run so well up that mountain that to them you’ve virtually laid claim to it. So, perhaps now they feel the need to create some distance from you before you overwhelm and claim the race too. Their fear may be that within a few years you'll be on the board and/or lining up some major sponsors to attract elite athletes and it will create such enticing propositions that they will have little choice in the matter but to go Pro. Here’s something to ruminate; TCR paid you $150 to help cover the costs of your internet site. The cost of a hunting license for mountain goats is $153.25. They owe you $3.25! The Pikes Peak Marathon is a beautiful race, an excellent challenge and well organized. I will run the marathon again next year. And, I think you should run the marathon next year as well. In spite of it all, you shouldn’t let them dis-gourage you — on the entrails or off!
I volunteer to act as a mediator between you and Dave, if you want to step outside the legal blackmail process. I want this escalation to cease. It is not good for you or Dave or the running community. I have let this person know that I will gladly go to any “mediation” that they wish to set up — Matt
You have my support. If this turns out bad for you, the only way I will ever run PPM again is as a bandit!
What a crock of s#@t. I hope TCR/PPM is not using money from my entry fees to seek revenge against their political enemies. I don’t think spending tax free money on lawyers is promoting amateur athletic competition and fitness.
Right on! I would not have entered the Pike’s Peak Ascent in 1999 had it not been for YOUR WEB PAGE. I printed the course description, read it dozens of times, shared it with others and stayed motivated to train... thank you. We all know that your intentions were honorable. Don’t let the bas@#@#s get you down.
My gosh! I love the legal class I’m witnessing here. Never knew so much about trademark infringement, et al. I was trying to figure out what your “personal gain” from the site was. It seems that guys like me derive more “personal gain” than you. Obviously, your gain is intrinsic; there must be a law against personal satisfaction! I really appreciate all that you do! Don’t let ’em get you down! :-)
You go Matt! Your site is great and a lot of help to those who want to run the marathon. I don’t see how you gain anything at all by providing such great info. If anything you help promote the race which would benefit the race directors.
A frightening person this Mr. Zehrer...
Interesting situation. Why does controversy follow you wherever you go? First of all, I would leave out any inflammatory wording such as “misuse of power” from your letter until you know for sure who hired this lawyer. Then I would take out that last paragraph about Pikes Peak avenue. You don’t want to sink lower then they are. You’ve caused some waves with them and it might be a good idea to go to lunch with Mr. Zehrer and see if you can’t iron out your differences without bringing a lawyer into the mix. Good luck. I hope you don’t have to do anything to drastic with this site. This is the best source on the web for information not just on the race but on the mountain as well.
Nice try, Dave. If you cut the crap you might be able to back paddle a little faster. An apology IN WRITING to WWW.SKYRUNNER.COM would be a good start.
Matt, This was my first year running the Ascent (also my first race period). Anyway, your site helped me immensely in pacing myself and with training tips. Although I should have trained much more, at least I knew what I should have done. It is very disturbing that “they” are pursuing this path of litigation. It would seem more than coincidental that this is happening after your disagreements with them. Personally, I like the opportunity for everyone to run the race. However, I see no harm in sponsors putting up a little prize money or free trips or something. I sincerely hope that you and the “board” can work this out because I want this race to continue and it would be wonderful to see you and others of your caliber participate again.
I have a few thoughts about PPM’s recent action with regard to Matt Carpenter. First, I love this race. I think it’s well-organized and well-run. I plan to keep coming back as long as I can. I understand, from my limited perspective, both sides of the Matt Carpenter/PPM debate on prize money, and I don’t really support one side or the other (other than I don’t think that every race MUST offer prize money or seek elite athletes, but whether this one should is another issue). But why are you suing Matt Carpenter for trademark infringement? I understand the legal reason, but it seems very counterproductive for PPM to sue a very popular (albeit outspoken), well-known supporter of this race. Matt Carpenter has done a great deal to promote the PPM, and has helped countless runners along the way. He has been instrumental in communicating the history of the race, in updating results and course records, and in serving as a resource for thousands (including PPM officers, it would appear). I’m very concerned with what I see happening here from a human decency perspective. Legal threats simply erode relationships and result in bitterness and hard feelings. Even if you’re successful, I don’t think the impact of this action will be limited to PPM officers and Matt Carpenter. It affects all of us who participate. I don’t pretend to know or understand all the issues (from either side’s perspective) surrounding this development, but from where I sit it’s pointless, petty, and a waste of time and resources. Is any action even necessary, and if it is, isn’t there a more positive way to resolve it? If you “win”, what will it have gained you, or perhaps the question is what will you have lost?
This is a ridiculous affair. It’s sad that the race organizers have stooped this low after the exposure runners(and webmasters) like you have given this race, internationally. Please be assured of my full support in this matter.
Call me paranoid but do you think this situation has something to do with your public feud over elite athlete support for the PPA/PPM? When I think of PPA/PPM, I think of www.skyrunner.com not www.pikespeakmarathon.org In fact, it appears that the PPM/TCR have relegated all PP material to your site. They don’t even make an attempt to disseminate info (besides the basics) on the race, other than referring people to your site. Something fishy is definitely going on there. As to your web site, I think you have done a TREMENDOUS job on it. Anybody who would take the time to map the course in detail, with photos and trail descriptions deserves more respect then you’ve gotten. And you’ve done this all for FREE.
I seldom take the time to write letters to express my feelings, but in this case, it is very hard to remain silent. I was stupefied when I heard the TCR’s latest move: a lawsuit against WWW.SKYRUNNER.COM ! That must be a joke, I thought. Why on earth would the TCR lash out at the ONLY real training resource for the PPA and PPM (notice I am not spelling them out — this way you can’t sue me for trademark infringement)? Your OWN website training page links directly to SKYRUNNER and has done so for quite some time. I have run this “race” 5 times in the last 6 years and have kept my confirmation booklets for all of them. YOU (TCR) send participants to WWW.SKYRUNNER.COM for OFFICIAL results and training tips IN WRITING in the booklet. Whoever wrote that letter to Mr. Carpenter should turn in their law practice license because they never heard of “confirming the facts” before attacking. I also have read the paper lately and am plenty aware of the “TCR vs.Matt Carpenter” issue. Maybe the TCR should grow up and settle their differences of opinion with Mr. Carpenter for the issues that really matter instead of gasping for ways to undermine his obvious commitment and dedication to the PPA and PPM participants. As far as I can tell, there is no personal benefit to Mr. Carpenter when I go to his website and read about training on Pikes Peak. I can see though lots of personal time and money was spent there to collect that abundance of useful information and maintaining the website ($$!) Last but not least, what a very inappropriate way you found to spend my race fees. You are probably not going to see me at the start line next year.
infringer — Webster doesn’t recognize it, but American Heritage does disgorgement — Webster doesn’t recognize it, but American Heritage does
disgorge Don’t want to be standing in front of you if you have to disgorge. ;-)
Wow! either that guy is a real dork, or he’s getting scared. I’m guessing it is a combination of the two.
You make some very good points Matt. What a drag to be “dragged” through the mud like this when your whole goal is to help people run better : ( . Don’t be discouraged you have tons of support as you know. Enjoy the challenge and stick to your guns!!
Hey Matt! Wait! I haven’t finished reading the waiver... OK, now who gets to decide whether I’m mentally capable? If you were to ask my wife today...that’s enough of that. I don’t want to be another frivolous e-mailer! My only (printable)comment is LET THEM EAT TRAIL ROCK! I ran the marathon this year for the first time and had a blast! I am certain I could not have been successful without your web page’s guidance and suggestions. I’m going back next year only if this nonsense goes away. Keep up the good work!
If anyone should be offended it would be poor o’ Zebulon Montgomery Pike,
We have read the lawsuit threat against Matt Carpenter and www.skyrunner.com and we find it totally unbelievable. To suggest that Matt has been “using the mark Pikes Peak Marathon America’s Ultimate Challenge for your personal gain and benefit” suggests that the TCR has no clue what www.skyrunner.com or Matt Carpenter are really about. The information provided on www.skyrunner.com and by Matt has helped thousands of runners have an enjoyable and successful race. This information is so much more in-depth than anything the TCR provides. Perhaps that fact has played a part in the decision to file a lawsuit (i.e. jealousy). Instead of filing a lawsuit against Matt Carpenter and www.skyrunner.com, you should be thanking him profusely for providing much needed information about the race. Also, if the lawsuit has its origins in the different personal viewpoints you have with Matt over prize money, that would be extremely petty. Please rectify the situation by having the TCR drop its frivolous lawsuit (America has enough of them already) against Matt Carpenter and www.skyrunner.com . Until the TCR does so, you can consider us former fans of the TCR.
What a crock of s@#t. The way I see it, the PPM has benefited greatly by the information you post on your website. They should be thanking you profusely instead of threatening you. Perhaps a letter or e-mail is due. Just kind of sours you on the TCR and PPM. I hope they realize the error of their ways before dragging this nonsense through court.
What an interesting story. It sure would appear that Dave is taking retaliatory action against you. Since I’m a person who doesn’t enjoy “a good fight”, if it were me, I would probably send the letter you wrote, but then a few days later, after they’ve had time to read it and begin their response, I’d change the website to meet their demands, even though they’re being extremely petty about the whole thing. They should be thankful that you website is up!
You’ve already sent the letter by posting it on your web page. It’s just not ‘official.’ If you go to court, where should we sent donations for your legal fees? I’m as surprised as you are. After everything you’ve done to promote the marathon and ascent, they pull a stunt like this. You know, maybe just remove the bold “America’s...,” but leave the copy of the finishers medal. No big deal. Or send a letter back simply stating “take me to court,” and put up a link on your web site to send comments to TCR and Zehrer.
Without your web page, there is little doubt in my mind that I would not have signed up for the ’99 PPM, let alone successfully completed the event. It certainly appears to me(an experienced trial lawyer) that the threat is related to your protest concerning the current management’s handling of the event. While I disagree with your position regarding awards to elite athletes, I am astounded that management would attack you in such a fashion. People are entitled to their opinions and a little dialogue is healthy for most people. I should hope that everyone associated with the PPA and PPM, runners, volunteers, residents of the area, and, yes, management, would and should thank you for all you have done and will do in the future for both events. I offer you my personal thanks and hope that next year you will compete again in the PPM. If so, my stated goal is to get to the top before you get down!
Sounds like you’ve thought this through and have plenty of support. Good luck Matt. Let me know how I can help if you need it.
Dear Board Members, Thanks for the ride. And I am not talking about the bus ride down from the top of Pikes Peak after the race. The race was Pikes Peak America’s Ultimate Challenge. Please have your lawyers contact me if I am in violation of the State trademark laws by using that. This action is so petty I just had to respond. You will not be getting my $45 this next year. I am not impressed with your organization at all. If in fact there is a real Board of Directors. I have a feeling we all know who the Board is don’t we Dave. I cannot tell you how this action against skyrunner.com has upset me. It was a valuable tool for runners since there was no training suggestions on the TCR page. I will encourage all whom I come in Contact with not to run YOUR race
Please feel free to mention testimonial from runners like me in support of your site. I have seen no other site as helpful, ever, to assist a runner in prep for the race. I can see no purpose in personal gain for Matt Carpenter, only for the race! I do recommend that you tone down your wording; from personal experience, expressing one’s opinion, without tempering it, only hurts later.
Damn shame that Dave has decided to become a flaming as@#@le about this!! On the other hand if you let it drag out in court then he’ll have high attorney fees to pay and that’ll cut into his profits and income. Give em hell Matt. I’ll bet we could find you a runner/lawyer that would be sympathetic to your cause on the Runners World Forum Website. Who knows maybe they’ll even do it for free. Want me to post a message ??
I agree with your argument. But, as you say, it may not carry the day in court. I hope you can locate an attorney — to at least put up a good defense — and then publicize the proceedings and outcome. Though I’m no attorney, I believe the PPM/TCR can choose to enforce their copyright at any time (and prevail), though they may be assessed a reduce set of damages based on evidence of tacit approval and not operating in “good faith” with you. Also, I didn’t see it, but I’d ask the law firm to provide a copy of the alleged previous communications their client had with you or state whether they claim it was via telephone (with dates/times). Now you and I know that it really doesn’t matter, they can decide on legal action with/without prior contact — but again, it may lessen damages & become just a slap on the wrist to you.
Correct “missuses” to “misuses” :-)
Good evening Matt, My wife read the letters and said we should setup the Matt Carpenter legal fund she said she will put in $100. Thats about 40 minutes of legal work.
I too have a difficult time thinking that this was not Dave’s doing, but it is, indeed, a good idea to give him the benefit of doubt. I thought your letter in response was excellent. Have you thought of law school? Not that you need it, but it might actually be fun for you. From a non-legal perspective, I would not fold to their demand that you drop the use of the PPM moniker on your site. From a lawyer’s perspective, I take the same position, but temper that a little. I would suggest that, in addition to (*), you add a disclaimer that states that Skyrunner.com is not an official web site of PPM and that the use of the copyright is not an official or sanctioned use. You might even want to request that the lawyers approve or modify such a disclaimer. The gist of intellectual property, especially trademark law, is that if their is no confusion on the part of the consumer, than there is no harm to the trademark owner and, therefore, no claim of infringement. The lawyer letter was a lot of muscle flexing and I think you should stand your ground. What a waste of PPM’s money to fight such a trivial battle. A battle that they would lose, given the history of approval and prior sanctioned use.
Since you’ve contributed immeasurably to the success of the PPM/A, suggest you go after TCR requesting remuneration for use of your Website to promote these events. I know the they have told people to refer to your Website verbally, via email, telephone, etc., for information on how to run the mountain. Also believe people have gotten application off of your site as well. Thus, you should be reimburse some finite amount for your time and so forth.
Matt, this all sounds like a lot of b.s. I think your website provides valuable info about the race. As far as the trademark thing goes, I think its crazy, but we do live in a “everyone sue everyone” world. Here you are promoting the race on your time and money and now this. Petty stuff! Good luck with this case.
Sorry to hear about your legal woes, should you need support, I can be quite the court room groupie.
Go for the jugular or don’t go at all.
Don’t back down Matt! Now I can clearly see where all our mis-spent race fees are going (into the pockets of some damn attorney!). I think the way Zehrer is handling this is a bunch of crap and you’ve done more for that race than anybody I know. In fact, if they keep up with this harassment I’ll run the race alright next year, but as a bandit! I’m not about to have my entry fee line the coffers of a bunch of useless lawyers. (and you can quote me on that!)
Go get ’em, Matt! I agree, you need to see the written paperwork asking you to delete the logo, etc. from your site or at least a phone call from the powers that be. Hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Take care.
Go get ’em! Having heard about the vagarities of Mr. Zehrer before, we are not at all surprised that he would instigate such action against you. I guess he just doesn’t know what else to do when he feels threatened (real or imagined!). We’re behind you on this one! PS - love the Liability Waiver!
I think that this is funny, and that they have no claim, and are just mad that you do have a better site than what they could ever do. I like your letter and laughed a lot. I hope that you send that one and let me know of the results. Makes me mad that I ever raced in one of there races
I can see why you are rightly upset at this jerk (Dave). Given the fact that he has only a paten pending and that the Logo has been in the public domain for over 40 years any paten he might receive can be contested in court. While the paten is pending he can do nothing to stop you from using it. When and if he receives a paten he can issue a cease and desist order. I am pretty sure on these points but worth checking with an atty.
I’m not sure what “...injunctive relief...” and “...disgorgement of the infringer’s...” are, but they do sound painful. Of course, the claim that you use the site for “you [sic - hey I cut and pasted] personal gain and benefit”, is pretty absurd. In a world where .coms staunch regular losses by selling advertisements smaller than your offending text, the TCR should be grateful for your free blurbs. Clearly, you have annoyed Dave Zehrer. He must feel you have disgorged his reputation. Unfortunately, I’m sure this threat is serious, and that you could incur serious costs. I’m no lawyer, but I suspect you could get this tossed out of court by toning down your letter and adopting a purely matter-of-fact tone. (Then again, maybe you have to disgorge multi-syllabic gibberish from your dictionary.) Perhaps one of the runners is, or knows, a lawyer? Note the “you” typo was my fault and not in the original letter from the attorney — Matt
If I can help you in any way, legal or otherwise, I’ll be happy to oblige. Those f@#@#@s from The Pike’s Peak Marathon OWE YOU, and mean-spirited s@#t like this makes my blood boil!!
I am familiar with both of the lawyers who wrote you as they are former members of Holland & Hart, a large premier Colorado law firm. They are good at what they do. Thus, you may want to seek some legal advice before taking any steps. The best course would be for you to remove the offending mark until the dispute is resolved as they may claim ongoing damages from your continued use of the mark. It would seem that it would be relatively easy for them to give you permission to reproduce the mark with due attribution. You may even be able to do this now but I would suggest seeing a copyright lawyer for that purpose. Depending on how much money you are willing to spend, Holland & Hart may be the firm for you as their intellectual property lawyers are top notch. Other good firms include Holme Roberts, and Sherman & Howard. They are not cheap but you might be able to talk them into a pro bono representation given your public nature. Of course, the other avenue open to you is to let the GT and others know of these threats as I can tell from the tone of the letter that they do not want a public battle with you. Please send an e-mail if you have further questions.
This is the most pitiful thing I have ever seen. More and more, I believe that TCR/PPM must have something to hide, in order to go to such drastic measures to get you off their back. And, as you said, here’s yet another frivolous waste of $$$. I was laughing, then gagging, and now I’m afraid. I said the word “ultimate” yesterday, and I think I said that something was “challenging” today. Will I get thrown in jail?
For years, skyrunner.com has been the only source of comprehensive information about the Pikes Peaks Races on the internet, and it remains the ULTIMATE source! Anyone with an interest in these events, who seeks to stifle that font of information, is a jackass who is biting off the hand that feeds it! Nationwide,(if not worldwide) the ultimate source for the Ultimate Challenge is well-known by running clubs and their runners to be skyrunner.com... including those of us on this coast of the USA... PS Either there is a serious lack of communication at PPM Inc, or ulterior motives abound there, with frivolous litigation such as this...
Unbelievable! It is hard for me to imagine the TCR’s motivation. If it was me, I would send the letter, but leave out the inference to retaliatory motives. This would give the TRC the chance to apologize profusely (which I think they should) without feeling as compelled to defend themselves. I hope it all works out ok.
I am amazed that somebody is doing this. It takes a certain amount of smallness and a large amount of time and it does not appear to have been well thought out from the evidence that you have. I think your response EXCLUDING the paragraph about “if on the other hand your contact is Mr. Zehrer...” is excellent. Most impressive is your documentation of past correspondence with TCR/PPM and printed pages of previous TCR/PPM web pages!! How or why you know/remember/collected these things is beyond me, but it will serve you well. Before you go throwing in that “if on the other hand your contact is mr. Zehrer...” paragraph, you better make sure it WAS his doing because if it wasn’t, then you are attacking and pissing him off for no reason, other than previous personal conflict. I don’t think that is called for nor do I think it is wise. I don’t know what your relationship with him is, but maybe a call to find out if he is responsible.
All I can say is “My God!” The TRC/PPM never cease to alienate runners. All for them and none for us. Wow. Can’t even imagine what was going through your mind when you got that. Hope it all works out. I think your letter is well written and well documented. It is the principle. At least no one threatened to take me to court when I wore my Pikes Peak Marathon shirt although I never made it to the finish line. The irony of the situation. So, what kind of personal gains can you make from a nonprofit organization? Next thing you know, you’ll be ripping off Goodwill. :)
Good stuff as always — you manage to stay in the mix no matter what;-) What a bunch of losers! Just one little typo I found during my initial scan of your letter — “Why would 1998 results get modified on September 16, 1999 — more oddities in this tail?” I think you meant tale? Go get ’em boy!
I think you offer them a great service by putting the * to reference one of the links to their page. Your points are very well taken. You do not display the logo, only a photo of your medal (but....maybe you need to indicate what it is?) By the way, in paragraph 8, change “tail” to “tale”.:-) Good luck! I hope you and Mr. Zehrer can work this out. You’ve taught him everything he knows. The official site is nothing compared to yours!
Your Comments...(Will not be added to the above letters but I still read them) |